I went to a "Foundations Seminar" today with my apartment-mate. It was at the office for her church, City Reformed. They're part of "Presbyterian Church in America"; I'm confirmed "Presbyterian Church, USA". They tend to be a little [okay, a
lot] more conservative than I in beliefs about, well, everything. Anyway, here are the notes I took; you might find them interesting. I didn't realize quite what separated Catholics and Protestants other than loyalty to the Pope, transubstantiation, penance, and some little stuff about Heaven. The class was a look at the differences between Catholics and Protestants at the level of beliefs that can be found in catechisms (not just what people
say). The "-" are my thoughts and questions against the Protestants, and the "+" are my thoughts that support them.
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1. Scripture and Tradition
Catholic beliefs: the Holy Spirit works through living, apostolic Tradition; Scripture and Tradition are equal
Reformed beliefs: Sola Scriptura (Mark 7:5-9, Col. 2:8, Jer. 23:28-30)
-: Scripture according to whom--who gets a license to interpret?
C: Bishops and Popes
R: no one may "bind the conscience" of the believer--we won't believe on command because someone tells us to, but must actually believe it after reasoning through (Acts 17:11, 19:8); teachers can offer their views, based on the Westminster Catechism
-: If there's no authority on right and wrong interpretations, how can we go against those who commit atrocities in the name of Christ, using "Biblical support"?
-: seems revisionary, if there is no proclaimed absolute interpretation
+: burden to go out and seek understanding and not be content to have someone spoon-feed you truths
-: How did the Bible come about? Wasn't the choice influenced by Tradition?
R: PCA pastoral candidates can list their objections to the Westminster Catechism as they go through examination; the Catechism isn't a perfect, inspired document
-: Why isn't it perfect, but the Bible is? Weren't both compiled by councils?
Side notes on Salvation:
C: somewhere, it says that one can potentially achieve salvation through adhering to one's conscience; it's in Romans 2:12-16 and sort of mentioned in the Catechism
R: Protestantism = intellectual freedom
-: that's pretty great, but when does someone become wrong to the point of not achieving salvation?
-: Why do we disagree if it doesn't seem to matter? Why do we have tens of thousands of denominations and worship separately if it's trivial things keeping us apart? (trivial = not related to whether you get saved or not)
2. Forgiveness and Assurance of Heaven
C: Baptism removes Original Sin, but you can fall out of Grace if you sin; sin = no faith = needs a second conversion; there is no way to say that you know you are going to Heaven; penance acts as a second baptism (because "we believe in ONE baptism" and can't do it again with water*); Church can forgive, good works aid in forgiveness (sincere acts of worship and devotion)
R: Sola Fide (John 6:29, 20:31; Acts 15:9; Romans 3:20a, 27-28, 4:5, 11:6; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8-9)
-: Say someone murders another person. If she was baptized, will she go to Hell? Or was that baptism not "real" in the first place, if it didn't keep her from sinning?
-: How can we know for certain that we are of the Elect?
R: well, we'll never be completely sure...
+: possible to have a sense of peace, knowledge that you're going to Heaven
+: take insecurities directly to God instead of to other humans (Priests/Bishops)
*Fun side note: everything in the creeds is there because some random Christian cult used to believe it. So, some group was out there preaching that, if you sinned, you could get re-baptized to take away that sin. Hoorah!
3. Mortal and Venial Sin
C: Mortal sin: intentional, grave violation of God's law, requires reconversion; Venial sin: small or unintentional, less serious
R: No sin too small not to damn, no sin to big to prevent salvation (Luke 16:10, Matt. 12:34b-37, 5:21, 27; Romans 3:20-23; Gen. 6:5); God wants us to be perfect
[Holiness tradition: we can, in fact, be perfect]
-: Does the distinction only matter if the repentance (way of fixing it) differs?
-: If we're saved and cannot fall out of Grace, why do we need repentance?
+: maybe it matters more for those outside of Grace?
R: No sin is "worse", so why do we hate those who are murderers, sex offenders, etc.? We shouldn't look down on them because of their sins, because we are sinners, too.
4. Forgiveness and Absolution
C: Priest is gatekeeper who dispenses forgiveness (can't go directly to God); indulgences for self and others, like an accounting system
R: be confident! (Acts 18:38; Romans 8:1, 15-16, 31-33; John 3:18a; Phil. 1:6)
-: If Grace received is a permanent thing, then if you stop believing in God, what happens?
+: we should want to repent of sin--sin is icky!
This is a pretty fantastic flow chart from "The Gospel According to Rome" that explains how Salvation and sin work in the Catholic church; check it out!
http://gospellightbiblebaptist.com/insidepg/gar.html
5. Communion
C: it is a work of redemption being carried out; reparation of venial sins; transubstantiation makes it a real sacrifice on Christ's part; it is active, giving merit; worship of the Elements
R: (Heb. 9:24-26, 10:11-14) no second sacrifice/offering; importance of proper administration; we're perfected, and we're being sanctified; does not bring merit
+: priesthood of all believers
-: cause of many Protestant differences, too: Zwingli, Calvin, Luther
Why the pageantry of the Catholic church would have been appealing back when Christianity started:
"Where's your God?" "Uh, He's in Heaven..."
"Where's your sacrifice?" "Uh, our sacrifice has already been done, so we don't have anything to do..."
"Where's your priest?" "Well, we're all priests..."
Having something to show is starting to look good, when the rest of your faith is so intangible.
6. Veneration of Mary
C: there are levels of praise: devotion is just below worship; Mary is exalted as queen, is sinless, helps intervene for our salvation; devotion is intrinsic to Christian worship
R: Solo Christo (Ex. 20:4, 34:14; Luke 4:8; Rev. 22:8-9; Isaiah 42:8, 48:11b; Jer. 44:16-23; Matt. 12:46)
-: Do we need a female to venerate, since it's usually "Father" God and the male Christ?
R: God can relate to you, even though He hasn't walked exactly in your shoes--has no need to be both male and female
-: Can women only be perfected as virgins like Mary?
Side note: more on gender in the Church
There is no sexual relationship in the Trinity; our God doesn't have sex (but is that just because the pagan gods did it, and we didn't want ours to be like theirs?)
Both male and female are necessary to represent God; if leadership is male (because of Father God and male Christ), where do women fit in?
We are all called to be both "sons of God" and "brides of Christ"--yes, that means the girls are sons and the boys are brides.
The Church is female. (uh, okay, whatever that means) We don't venerate the church, so we don't need to venerate Mary.
Why should leadership be male? Is Jesus' male-ness more important than His human-ness?
Conclusion
R: "Let the children come to Me": don't put intermediaries in the way of people's relationships with God--we don't need Mary, the Saints, or our Priests to stand in between us and God
The guy leading the talk: Catholicism has a whole lot of impediments to your relationship with Christ--so, friends don't let friends be Catholic...
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As you can tell, I sort of took sides with the Catholics in a lot of things. For some people, I think Catholicism is the best way to reach God. I do see that it has a lot of things that keep people from having a pure relationship with Christ, though. I guess I just want everyone to meet in the middle and get along.
What are your thoughts? Did I misrepresent either side in a way that needs to be corrected? And what do you think of the Catholic/Protestant divide?
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